Christian lobby ‘getting desperate’

Christian lobby ‘getting desperate’

Claims today by the Australian Christian Lobby (ACL) that allowing same-sex marriage would lead to the legalisation of polygamy have been slammed by activists as a desperate scare tactic.

The Australian reports this morning on moves by the ACL to step-up its opposition to the marriage equality debate.

An online petition pushing for the current definition of marriage in the Marriage Act to be retained has also been established as part of the fight against the growing tide of support for marriage equality reforms in Australia..

ACL claims if marriage is redefined, as it has been in Canada, “the next push will be for marriage to include polygamous relationships, as is currently being tested in a court in Canada”.

Australian Marriage Equality national convener Alex Greenwich said polygamy has not been legalised in any of the countries which allow same-sex couples to marry.

“In Australia the definition of marriage is quite clear — it is a loving committed union freely entered into by two people, something which can easily encompass same-sex partners but which is fundamentally different from polygamy which is usually one man marrying and lording it over several women,” he said.

“By using a desperate scare-tactic like the threat of polygamy, the Australian Christian Lobby is showing it has no real case against allowing same-sex couples to marry.”

Greenwich said he was disappointed the Christian Lobby had yet to reciprocate the commitment made by his group to a respectful and mature debate on marriage equality, and has instead condoned hatred.

“We stand by our pledge to conduct this important public debate with respect and call on opponents of reform to do the same,” Greenwich said.


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71 responses to “Christian lobby ‘getting desperate’”

  1. NIMB – “Quarrage?” Really? That is more irritating than the modern words “bromance” and “chil’ax”, and quite frankly is insulting.

    We’re talking about the committment of two people here to tie their lives together. The word “marriage” carries the weight of meaning from years of use. To call a same sex union anything else would be a form of verbal segregation.

    I’m sorry NIMB…but you attitude to this is discriminatory. You wrote privously about being happy to have a GLBT itentified person as a friend or employee but stop short at allowing your GLBT friends and employees the same right you have to the legal and social recognition of marriage. That is just plain sad.

    I seriously hope you don’t have any GLBT friends or employees and expose them to your discrimination.

  2. Not in my backyard-

    While I understand you want to appear tollarent, your argument regarding marriage does not stand to reason.

    Marriage is a civil law. It does not belong to religious groups, and hasn’t for most of our colonial and history as a Commonwealth. Religion cannot be used to discriminate. Instead, all should have a right to access marriage, the religions, or the irreligious, should be free to ordain and treat marriage as they choose (including if a church feels that it should discriminate against same sex partners.)

    The central reason why gay people cannot be excluded from protection and recognition by their own laws is because, as you acknowledge, they were born gay, and its discriminatory to do otherwise. Its good you have acknowledged that marriage does not belong to any one culture, except you have asserted that it belongs to heterosexuals instead. In the past, groups have claimed marriage for themselves. This led to Christian only, then white only marriages. These people were able to claim marriage as theirs, because they claimed that it was part of their culture. They claimed that without Christianity or whiteness, then a marriage was inherently invalid. But the reality was is that blacks and atheists enjoyed marriage to the fullest extent, even if they weren’t recognized. They learnt that marriage was not about religion or race, but about more universal concepts such as love, commitment and support. Likewise, heterosexuals do not have ownership over love, commitment and support. It is fraudulent to say marriage was adopted as a celebration of heterosexual life- though homosexuals were excluded because homosexuals were killed at the time anyway. It was instead established to recognize love, support and commitment, and often money and ascendancy.

    You haven’t actually explained how gay marriage would negatively impact on your marriage or your physical wellbeing. Certainly, your claim that it would impact your ‘culture’ is fraudulent- you have every right to practice marriage as you wish, and within your cultural bounds. You would of course never be compelled to marry somebody of your own gender. But you can choose to reject same sex marriage, however you cannot invoke your beliefs in other peoples marriages and cultural recognition of a civil, universal law, just as gays have no intention of obstructing your celebration of a heterosexual only marriage.

    You cannot expect that marriage both be a civil law but be accessible only for a certain ‘club’. If marriage was not enshrined in the law then this discussion would be irrelevant- however- you cannot expect my law to impose your conceptualisation of marriage and leave part of the law unaccessible to me simply because of the way I was born. If marriage is to be a civil law then it must include people regardless of characteristics beyond their control, and seek a definition which is neutral and protective of your rights as much as it is of my rights. Any further ‘cultural’ recognition is private and can be done without the imposition of a law.

  3. To Daniel.
    I do have proof that there are no others in the universe.
    I personally looked after the Maharishi on his visits to Australia in the 70’s.
    Greedy, money grubbing individual, always wanting to know how much money was in the Till, just like the Christians do, and while I was slaving away in the laundry dying everything purple.

    His holiness, taught me how to separate my physical body from my consciousness, a hard thing to do when when you can’t let go of the old fella.
    I traveled the Galaxy with him many times on the Asterol plain, and we found no evidence of Aliens or any sign of God/Gods.

    The fact is, no one has ever seen this God, some Saints doing the Estercy bit, might have had some strange visions though.

    This god has never been questioned, fingerprinted, or asked why he/she doesn’t like Prawns, or a nice Pork Chop, or hauled before a Magistrate to give account, why he/she ok’s discrimination, murder and all the other ugly things that some Christians get off on.
    Burning young virgins at the stake was a big sex thing once too.

    That’s my evidence Daniel, and the only way I can explain it.
    Best if you can put some more books in that one book library.

  4. Dave, it is always sad to learn about people wanting to kill themselves. You talk about a form of agressive bullying that I as a human do strongly object to.

    And yes Dave, While there is one issue alone that I do not agree with, I none the less wish to thank you for expressing your views. I do value reading your views, and they have added to the debate in a positive manner.

    Each and every post of yours has added to the debate in a positive way – including the one view I do not agree with.

    As I live in Melbourne and did not get the chance to listen to John Laws, I do not know weather or not John may have deserved what he got from Garry Burns. It may be that he needed to be cut down a peg or two. My point with Garry Burns is that when he did that, everyone went into a fear mode. All I spoke to say ‘can not say anything at all against the gays’ ‘best not say anything at all’. And via that, I wonder if many people are showing support for gay marraige out of this same or similar fear.

    The one major objection that most NIMBRs like myself have is the use of the word Marriage. If you where to use a totally different word (say ‘Quarrage’ where the letter M is replaced by the word Q), then you would not intrude onto this

    We do not object to you having your own thing. To be exactly the same in legal definition as Marriage, but just keep the word marriage for the NIMBRs and others.

    I would expect that legalised Civil Unionships would give the GLBT community all the legal protections of which Marriage would. Be almost the exact same thing except for the word being different.

    ON THE ISSUE OF CULTURE
    I would see marraige in the same traditional and cultural light as AFL/Rugby teams being all men OR having the Melbourne cup with a mix of cows and horses. Even having Shetlands or Clydesdales run in that race would be too much of a break of tradition.

    By all means, there can be female AFL teams, there can even be mixed gender ones. But do not touch the traditional AFL games. Likewise I trust there already are horse races with Shetlands and/or Clydesdales but do not touch the traditional Melbourne Cup.

    The tradition of Marraige being one man and one woman is the same thing. Gays are welcome to have their own version. Call it something else but be exactly the same in every other way. Just do not call it Marriage.

  5. I look forward to the day when religion no longer holds any power over politics, when a priest is shunned for telling a politician what to do. When will people realize that Christianity is not a way of life but a poison in the modern world, a cancer on equality. the bible is not the greatest book written but the most hypocritical, backwards, Hate filled and evil piece of literature ever to be forced on mankind.

  6. Not In My Bedroom said…

    “You have your cultural things like the Mardi gra, we want our Marriage.”

    There is no law stopping hetrosexual people creating their own Mardi Gras type event. Create your own celebreation of your sexuality if so so desire.

    There is however a law stopping same sex marriage.

    If you put the work in…you can have your own festival. Just the same as many GLBT people are putting the work in to get outdated laws changed…which we will do…even if it takes another 100 years.

  7. I meant to say I assume you include aliens. Sorry if that didn’t make sense.
    -in regards to my comment to peter

  8. Not in my bedroom.

    You might get upset Gary Burns took John Laws to court. You would not be alone, even some people in our community did not like it. But you’re not the one standing at the edge of a bridge thinking about jumping because you’re a little Nancy pillow biter, that this was one insult to many. You’re also not the one who will attend the coroner’s court and break down giving evidence about what a great mate you had. How he was getting depressed and taking things to seriously. That this was the final straw.

    You see when all is said and done, I don’t know how many lives Gary saved by setting an example of John Laws, by my thinking he saved a few. Sure suicide is not the domain of GLBTI people, but you will not beat them on that. They take their lives at a much greater rate. You can see why when you look at what the Australian Christian Lobby and their mates do.

    You can grow old with your love, you can both pay taxes, you can put your loved one to rest, but you can never marry? So you live as if married, but never get that right. Never have equality. With all the laws that discriminate in favour of married couples, it would take 20 years to remove a majority of them even if you had Civil Unions. My family wants me to marry, so does my partners. We believe in Marriage. After seeing all the work that goes into raising children we decided that was not for us, but good luck to those that do have them.

    While I respect your opinion, I do feel discriminated against by this government, I am just not convinced I or others deserve that. Now I am not asking you to be discriminated against, I am not telling you not to get married if that makes you happy, I even except you the way you are. But please give me a break if you think I want to feel the cruelty of discrimination. There is a law stopping me from marrying my love.

  9. Include polyandry and you’ve got yourself a deal. We’re grownups, we should be able to enter into any respectful arrangement we want. A government’s role in a country such as ours should be to preserve and protect equality, regardless of race, sexuality, religion or gender. If a religion wants to police its own boundaries, it should only be able to do so with willing participants of that religion.

  10. Not in my Bedroom,

    The polls show Same-Sex Marriage is supported by the wider community. People are talking about Same-Sex Marriage in forums and marching in the streets who think the discrimination of their relationship is very cruel. I am not convinced the vast majority of Same-Sex attracted people oppose Same-Sex Marriage. Even if you look at the GLBTI press a majority support it and are outraged by the lack of equality.

    Now the White Australia Policy was not cruel if you ask some people. I think it was. The segregation of Aboriginal people was cruel also, but accepted culturally.

    I guess it depends where you stand. Same-Sex marriage is not compulsory. Marriage is not. The changes to exclude Same-Sex married couples from the Marriage act was in 2004 and was politically motivated. Culturally there were some couples married at the time. Would they feel this was cruel?

    No fault Divorce was also not traditional, but Australia changed this.

    Arguing I should be discriminated against, does not make me feel I should be.

  11. One last thing, I would like to complain about the lack of options in the above survey.

    There needs to be the option which would be like ‘Marriage no, Civil Unionships yes’. I feel that it is very important to have that option in such surveys.

    Editor’s Note: Thanks NIMB, but this story relates to marriage, not civil unions.

  12. To Dave,

    I am in no way a supporter of Zealoted groups like the ACL. As I am an Athiest who will say to anyone ‘there is no God’ I do not share their views one bit. I often feel rather sorry for them for being so mixed up.

    I may seem to have painted them as the victims as I see the GLBT as being just as zealoted and just as one minded on getting gay marriage as the ACL side are. Like when the GLBT make the response they have made above.

    Not only the Zealot groups are opposed to gay-marriage. There are a lot of people like me who are N.I.M.B.R.s (”Not in my bed rooom” on the issues of homosexuality)

    Let me define a NIMBR
    … I am ok with Homosexual people as people generally.
    … What happens in the bed room between two consenting adults does not matter a thing to me.
    … Yes I am happy to accept openly gay and lesbian people in my life as people and freinds etc. also as employees should I own a business etc.
    … We are born this way. In much the same way as gay people are born gay.
    … NIMBRs are very common. but are normally shy about it. Especially ever since a guy called Garry sued a shock-jock called John Laws. Most of the NIMBRs are in fear of loosing their homes if they say something.

    Shy NIMBRs are fast becoming ‘the new tennants’ for the household closet as you may say. While gays are coming out, many shy NIMBRs are moving in.

    NIMBRs are just as common today as what Gays where in the past. But you just do not know it.

    The NIMBRs will never hurt you. They will never bully you, taunt you, as for bash you – we are as sickened by poofter bashing as what you are. They will accept you as a person as the way you are. All they want is just one cultural feature to keep for themselves.

    You have your cultural things like the Mardi gra, we want our Marriage.

  13. I would like to point out that polyamerous relationhips are not solely one male married to a number of women with the male “lording” it over the females. I realise that there are some religious groups in which this is the case…but it is not the only model.

    A polyamerous relationship can involve any number of people of either sex in any number of formations. Please follow the link below to learn more about the truth of polyamory.

    http://polyamory.org.au/

    As far as same sex marriage goes…it needs to be legalised…end of story. To not do so devalues relationships and people. Australia will see the light one day…but lets face it…we are so behind the rest of the world it’s not funny.

    As far as raising children in same sex marriage goes…there’s no reason why not. Same sex couples general have to spend a lot of money, time and energy in bringing a child into the world than their straight bothers and sisters. As a result they tend to value the children more and spend more time with their kids. Yes, the laws revolving around sperm donation years ago has ment that are many donor concieved children who will never be able to find their other bioloical half…and that is very sad. But…laws have changed and donations are not used now if the donor does not agree to have his details released to the offspring when they turn 18. Problem solved for future generations of donor offspring.

    Austraia needs to take it’s head out of the sand and take a step into the 21st century.

  14. To Dave,

    I do listen. There are vast quantities of Gays who oppose Gay Marriage. and all for the cultural reason that I have said.

    There is really no issue in my mind with Polygomy. A unionship of three, four or ten people can be just as consenting as the unionship of two. Further to that, a three way unionship could have two bi-sexuals of one gender and a straight of the other. A very nice three way love triangle.

    Slavery is in no way as bad as banning Gay Marriage. Also, Slavery was over a long time ago. Whereas Strict-Straight-Marriage is still very much a cultural thing of today. Even the laws are still that way today. So it is very much a cultural thing of today in Australia, whereas Slavery was out a long time ago.

    Stoning to death. Would this be that different to execution via electric chair. Many people in Australia would very much support this for many violent crimes.

    Yes there are some traditions which in my view need to be changed. As they are cruel and nasty. Like marrying off 12 year olds and slavery. However Traditional Marriage is not nearly as cruel to GLBTs as what these are.

  15. Not In My Back Yard

    I am curious why you have chosen to paint the Christian Lobby as some sort of victim?

    I have heard many lies and hate rants from the Australian Christian Lobby targeting our community over the years. I have heard attacks on many other Christians from them. Marriage to them is a vehicle to attack people in the GLBTI community. They are using the fundamentalist preaching style “We are all under attack from the world, join us and together we will win”. They want Internet Censorship (that almost cost Labor the election), forced religious instructions, and more.

    Last time I checked a street corner Bible Basher, 99.9% of people did not give them the time of day. Call yourself a “Christian Lobby”, build a website, and host a few events saying you will get Christian votes to politicians if you attend, and presto.

    Do they run a soup kitchen? Help the Poor? Are they up in the floods helping people? Well no they are not. Even gay festivals are raising money for flood effected communities. Chances are I will never meet any company directors of the Christian Lobby, but they believe if I have any rights, including the right to work in many government funded jobs, then that is just wrong. They advocate for discrimination in all sorts of areas. Marriage is just one of them.

    So walk in my shoes, and tell me you would not think they are a pack of bastards.

  16. To Peter. I assume that when you say we are alone in the universe. How can you say that when you don’t know? When was the last time you travelled around the galaxy? How do you know there isn’t a god? Do you have proof? You are completely entitled to your opinion but how can you say it as a fact when the human race doesn’t know much about the universe? I completely agree with homosexual marriage at a state level but churches do have the right to refuse. It’s a sad world we live in when people hide behind a book to preach hate. If you are homophobic that’s your choice but atleast have the back bone to stand up and say I hate you rather than pretend god influenced you. If there is a god he wants more love in this world whether it be gay or straight. The ability to raise children is dude to the parents choices not their sexuality. Most of the worlds truly horrific parents are straight such as the couple that would rather their son commit suicide than accept who he is and be happy. I’m not a man of violence but those people should be shot in my opinion

  17. Not In My Back Yard

    Slavery was a cultural tradition, so was stonning people to death and marriage of girls who were 12. But did I mention Polygomy? The White Australia Policy was also a cultural tradition. If we are to follow your arguments we should keep all these things.

    Many cultures had Same-Sex marriage but we did not keep that. I guess what we keep and do not keep depends on your perspective.

    If you think it just GLBTI people asking for equality, you need to get out more.

  18. I love how the GLBT groups call this ‘them getting desperate’ and ‘they really have no case to answer when they stoop to something like this’

    While I do not agree with the viewpoint of ACL, I none the less can see how ‘they turely believe in what they have said’. Yes they do so clearly fear that if Gay-Marriage was legalised, they do truely fear that other things will happen to their cultural feature known as marriage.

    And in their eyes they would naturally see this point as just another point to help their cause.

    They do have one powerful reason. It is their culture. It is a feature of their cultural way of life. Weather they should have it or not, Marraige belongs to them.

    Civil Unionships is a human right. Marriage is a cultural means that some cultures have developed for them to celebrate their views of a straight unionship.

  19. Same sex marriage doesn’t have a cost to it, polygamy probably does -pension rights etc…and as the artilce says it involves one man ruling over several women …there’s no comparison but I’m not surprised it’s been brought up. Had a meeting with one of my senators (Catholic) and this was one of the things that kept cropping up…the others being forcing churches to perform gay marriages, being forced to allow gay couples to addopt , being such a trivial issue the “doing it tough” suburban families thought there were more important issues to discuss..

    From my feedback from MPs and senators there seems a definite split between the Catholics and the rest…If another mp or sentors throws another quote from a Catholic priest as justification why he won’t bring in marriage equality I think I’ll scream…I thought we didn’t have to follow a particular relgiion in Australia… Anyway here’s some painful Christian quotes that might get thrown your way by them:
    Catholic Archbishop of Canberra – Goulburn, Mark Coleridge “For a government to confuse desires and rights is bound to lead to bad law; the same is true when a government focuses upon the individual at the expense of the community as a whole.” or perhpas Bishop Coleridge ‘Justice concerns rights and duties; and in this case we are not talking of the right of some to which there corresponds a duty for all.”

    Up yours…what about compassion, love thy neighbour and all the good things that religion is all about

  20. People will be born and die and never agree on translations of the Christian Bible throughout their life. Both might be well intended, but never reach a point where they could agree on all the text.

    If we are to make laws, then they should not be based on a Bible that so many people do not agree with. Laws should recognize that our population is not of the one religion, and may not be of a religion at all, and we all have the right not to have a religion forced onto us.

    Laws should be based on Civil Rights. The recognition under law of a relationship should not exclude a Same-Sex attracted couple. To do so is a terrible violation of an important Civil Right and a great injustice to many good people who believe in a fair go.

  21. Really Girls! Try to get over it. There are no gods, Angels, Devils.
    We are here alone in the universe, we only have ourselves to look after, and somehow we just have to make a go of it.

    Jesus was a Prophet and there were plenty of other Prophets around at the same time, doing the same things, Miracles, preaching etc.

    Jesus teachings are a great example to follow, and I know that most Gay’s are kind and loving and would run circles around most Heterosexual animals.

    I wouldn’t want to worship a merciful god, {anyway, why do we have to worship a jealous, vengeful old basta@@rd anyway}.

    Seems that some of these Daiety’s are into S&M and bondage.

    Anyway get your Drip-Dry Wedding Frocks ready and join the Merry go round of Marriage.

    Seems that these

  22. Thought this would be fitting..

    The Bible and Dr Laura: The Leviticus Problem

    A member of THEs editorial board found this “open letter to Dr Laura” on the internet. We include it here to help those of us facing debates with those who draw upon the bible to support their condemnation of non-heterosexual lifestyles.

    Dear Dr Laura:

    Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you however, regarding some of the specific laws and how best to follow them.

    a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

    b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:&. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

    c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness (Lev. 15: 19 – 24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

    d) Lev 25: 44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?

    e) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?

    f) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

    g) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev19:27. How should they die?

    h) I know from Lev. 11:6 – 8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves.

    i) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of threads (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24: 10 – 16) Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? Lev 20:14.

    I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan…..

  23. Matiu

    If you are to accept that people be treated equally, then why push for people not to be? We are denied jobs in government funded services if they are run by some Churches, we are denied recognition of our relationships, we have laws that discriminate.

    Civil and political rights are a class of rights that protect individuals’ freedom from unwarranted infringement by governments and private organizations, and ensure one’s ability to participate in the civil and political life of the state without discrimination or repression.

    Last time I checked the government regulated Marriage. They did not make a distinction between Christian denominations, if you are Muslim or any other religion. Millions of Australians have had a marriage with no Church at all. Many married couples do not have children but their relationship is not worth less then the next couples. Why should a Same-Sex attracted couple not be treated equally under the law? Catholic Spain thinks they should be treated equally.

    I could well pull out a story of a child who committed suicide as the fundamentalist parents did not like their sexuality. The reality is millions of children around the world have Same-Sex parents with no problems at all. They do a terrific job. That is why Christian welfare agencies want them to foster children. Let us not make parenthood a crime also, in the quest to push for inequality of the law for Australians.

    It was an Anglican Priest that argued in the Rudd 20/20 Summit for Same-Sex Marriage. The vast majority of people agreed with him. I agree with also.

    It is time for equality, it time for full Civil Rights.

  24. Just bringing some perspective and context to Dave’s assertions above…

    No where in the Bible does it say that sex with a prostitue is ok. There is a difference between the Bible describing an event (Like when Judah slept with Tamar unknowingly thinking she was a prostitue after his wife had just died – Genesis 38:15) and when the Bible prescribes guidelines for conduct (Like when Paul warns that sleeping with a prostitute is actually joining yourself with her body and soul and this is not condoned – 1 Corinthians 6:16)…It is expected when you read the passage about Judah that you already know that sex with a prostitue is not condoned. Sex is like super glue and multiple partners means deep emotional hurt when you break up and then break up again and finally struggle to go deeper with the one you want to commit to for life. Sex is a good gift but it is dangerous to give to anyone and everyone as you lose a piece of yourself with each partner, it is my understanding that God would spare us this sort of pain.

    If a woman is not a virgin when she was married it meant she broke covenant with the man she was betrothed to (Betrothal between the couple was set long before the couple actually got married). It was the Law then that both the man who had sex with her and the woman were to be stoned – Deuteronomy 22:24. In contrast to this we see Jesus in John 8:8 offering grace to a woman caught in adultery, when the law stipulated that she should be stoned. Jesus also did not condone adultery but he knew that the woman needed grace for a life change. Mercy ovecomes judgement.

    If a man dies childless it was a tragedy in those days because his family was cut short. The man’s unmarried brother was to marry the widow to keep the dead man’s family line alive. Family lineage was very important back then, it also protected the woman from being a widow and having no support (no government support back then either). It is inaccurate to say that the widow has to sleep with a string of men – she would simply be married to an available brother. In Mark 12 it was a hypothectical story that some Sadducees used to argue with Jesus.

    As far as having sex when a woman had her period it does not say that they should be executed, as I read it, but that this is not condoned and would estrange the couple from the community (be cut off).

    I agree that no one should treat a homosexual with less value than another person – that would be wrong as we are all equal in value. However, as far as marriage and family goes… children need to have the opporutnity to be loved by both their biological parents any other option and they miss out. I read the other day where a lady who was fertilized by a serm donor was so distrought that she went to court to find her father. It is sad for anyone to go through that sort of trauma. Here are her comments…

    ”I cannot fathom going through life never knowing where I have come from, my ancestry and my identity,” Ms Springfield wrote. ”Every day I look at the faces of people around me and wonder: ‘Could you be my father, my half sister, my half brother, my grandparent?”’

    Ms Springfield was born before 1988, when sperm donors were completely anonymous. The identity of her donor is not recorded on the voluntary register of donors kept by the Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages.

    Lastly for Geoff – Polygamy was not God’s intention for family – Genesis 2:24 and Matthew 19:4-6. It is true that alot of kings had multiple wives back then but that was not and is not the blueprint for family. The Bible even warns kings not to take multiple wives Deuteronomy 17:17.

    The truth is we all need God’s mercy not just homosexuals… everbody – period. We all have stuff in our lives that I’m sure would put us all there with the woman caught in adultery ready to be stoned. WE need mercy and we need to show it to.

  25. John F Kennedy was confronted with religious fanatics trying to support the segregation of people of a different skin colour. They called themselves concerned citizens who were educated, but they would not support inter-racial marriage. They would not support equality. I see this as no different from the Christian Lobby and their ilk, trying to deny equal access to law in Australia on the basis of sexuality.

    President Kennedy addressed Christian Leaders.

    “I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute, where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be a Catholic) how to act and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote, where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference, and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him.

    I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish, where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source, where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials, and where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against all. “

    by John F. Kennedy (Catholic)

    September 12, 1960

    In 342 AD Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans issued a law in the Theodosian Code prohibiting same-sex marriage in Rome and ordering execution for those so married. Jesus never said anything against Same-Sex Marriage that happened around him. It took over 300 years before fundamentalist took over the early Christian Movement.

    The real threat to the world is not a Same-Sex attracted couple getting hitched; it is a fundamentalist with a nuclear bomb.

    There are some facts fundamentalist need to know.

    More people go to Mardi-Gras on a bad year then all the churches in Australia combined. Many people I know who go to Church actually support Same-Sex Marriage.

    The Catholic Church has just 1600 priest left in Australia and the average age is 64. I know of Priest and Nun’s that support Same-Sex Marriage even though Cardinal Pell does not.

    The Australian Christian Lobby is a private company. You cannot join, only support. It is owned by just three people. It is not a community based organization run by Christians. I would not call it a voice of Christianity in Australia, but a voice of three people out of 20 million Australians.

    The vast majority of Australians support Same-Sex Marriage. We know this through many polls that indicate what government will form. If Same-Sex Marriage was a political party, they would call this a landslide win for Same-Sex Marriage. The vast majority of Australians identify as Christian, so the vast majority of Christians support Same-Sex Marriage.

    The Senate Enquires show, time after time, the overwhelming submission support Same-Sex Marriage.

    Arguments to deny Equality under the law, are similar to those used to support the segregation of people of a different skin colour. History will not be kind to politicians that do not support equality under the law. I have heard many Bishops say we will look back at these times and say, “how could we of been so cruel”.

    I know some of us feel sad to see the Christian Lobby not focus on flood relief, the cost of living, climate change, and many other good areas that effect Australians. But remember they are not representing the Christian values of many people who believe in a fair go. There are Bishops, Nuns, Ministers, Priest, and more who value us and demand equality. If this is the best shot the Australian Christian Lobby has at denying equal treatment under the law, then I can say they have not just attacked us, but all good Christians.

  26. Whatever you think of the ACL (and I don’t think much of them), it is misleading to use pictures from what looks like a Westboro Baptist Church protest rally to accompany the article. SSO usually does great work in presenting the news as factual, however it’s a tenuous link to make this picture relevant. And it begs to be asked, if SSO didn’t have a file pic of the ACL or the AME, why not just have no picture?

    Editor’s Note: No need for conspiracy theories folks. The answer is simple. The first draft of the story which appeared online this morning included references to the Westboro Baptist Church, hence the use of the original photograph. When the story was updated, the Westboro references were removed, however the fresh picture failed to upload. This error has now been corrected.

  27. Why is the IMAGE used in this story one from an extremist rally in the UNITED STATES?

    The public rally held by the ACL was in the Northern Territory.
    -So WHY are the people in the image dressed for a US WINTER????

    There were no signs being displayed at the rally that depict “hate” and a thinking person has to assume it is there to persuade the casual reader that the organisers and supporters of the ACL are fanatics, not educated and concerned citizens.

  28. The Anglican Bishop of Gippsland supports Same-Sex Marriage. He and millions of Christians argue that Jesus was about dignity, respect, equality and love. I know of Baptist Ministers who support it, Catholic Priest, and nuns. While the three members who own the private company “The Australian Christian Lobby”, would argue a message of hate and cruelty, but the vast majority of Christian are advocating for us. Every Australian should have equal access to the law. Not just some. We are all deserving of equality.

    Even the Uniting Church funds anti-homophobia programs in schools.

    If we are to adopt the Australian Christian Lobby fundamentalist view of the world, then many Australians would suffer.

    For the Bible also says clearly that sex with a prostitute is acceptable for the husband but not for the wife. Polygamy (more than one wife) is acceptable, as is a king’s having many concubines. (Solomon, the wisest king of all, had 1,000 concubines.) Slavery and sex with slaves, marriage of girls aged 11-13, and treatment of women as property are all accepted practices in the Scriptures. On the other hand, there are strict prohibitions against interracial marriage, birth control, discussing or even naming a sexual organ, and seeing one’s parents nude.
    DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
    If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.
    MARK 12:18-27
    If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
    LEVITICUS 18:19
    The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman’s period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.

  29. I am unclear: in the Old Testament, polygamy was part of their own background culture. Are these people suggesting that we should ban Judeo-Christian marriage as well?

  30. ACL is a total joke!! Gods message in the Bible is clear, spread love not hate!!! This is clearly abusing there power and using it for evil nothing else. Instead of making life harder for the GLBT community, why dont you Christian fundamentalists put your efforts into helping the poor and disadvantaged.

    Also dont they get it. When same sex marriage is legalised in Australia, its not going to be mean ALL churches have to marry same sex couples, they will have the choice to say no.

    The Bible tells us what God wanted for us humans, to love each other, to spread that loving message to everyone in the world. Not spreading this message of hate and discrimination.

    Go to hell Australian Christian Lobby Group, God doesn’t like people like you that spread hate.