I am not without prejudice. For a long time I have been for equality and for everyone to be free of prejudice, but there has always been one type of person I can’t help feeling a little uneasy around — religious gays.
I simply cannot understand why you would subscribe to a religion that actively discriminates against not only your friends, but you.
But I was lucky enough to find myself at a group meeting recently where I got to hear stories from LGBTI people about how their sexuality and faith intertwined. It was an enlightening experience for all, but I couldn’t shake the feeling that religion and homosexuality are two incompatible creeds.
While my belief is that your faith is your own, I also believe that if you interact with the church, you are contributing to the machine that is organised religion, that you are in some ways working against me.
The stories I heard were about people trying to find some sense of belonging. That they feel ostracised from the gay community and instead seek sanctuary with like-minded people — something I can relate to, but in reverse.
I was once a good little Catholic boy, but later I felt distanced and rejected by what I once thought was so righteous. Instead I found new happiness in the echoing walls and thumping beats of the gay bars.
These people felt that a belief in a higher power was something that brought them together. Not all of them really attended church, but rather frequented groups to talk about common interests.
You believe in Jesus, I believe in Gaga. My rite is the dance, yours is a prayer. You clap for a choir, I clap to the beat. You drink wine, I drink anything containing alcohol.
Within our differences, we have our similarities. Wow, I think I just managed to purge myself of any prejudices — it’s a miracle!
Just don’t go knocking on my door.
By JESSE MATHESON
When the sly shop lifter tears out of the modern Museum with a coat called Christianity, we must catch them, all of us. How dare they shamelessly use the great ancient coat, to commit crimes against our community! How dare they say they own it, whacking us with it! How dare they try and smother and kill us.
Did you see Tony Abbott and Julia Gillard running around town showing it off to the cameras and saying they owned it? Hypocrites! They want the image, the look, the glamour; they wear it with pearls, cheap $2 dollar shop pearls. Tony said he would sell his arse for it! But you can only do so much to ugly ducklings. Or what about Jim Wallace and his crazy clowns, did you see him wearing it at the circus, looked like a cheap copy to me, I think he could not tell the real coat from the fake. But this is the same bloke who gets hissy creating dark out of the darkness- It’s not our fault his performances are not selling well, who wants to see that stupidity?
So next time you see a politician showing off that coat, or someone who throffs yelling it’s all theirs cursing you, remember they are insulting not just you or me, but some bloody good Christians who are gay and others who are straight.
Jesse
I believe that in this country everyone is entitled to have all sorts of opinion, whether be your atheism or my Christianity. However, if we the LGBTIQ are to convince people that we are people fighting for our equality, then we ought to practice it ourselves. Its very hard to convince the general public that we are an inclusive and diverse community when we are isolating and rejecting our own brothers and sister within our community.
As to the question of religion, there is a difference between faith and religion, faith is the relationship between you and God, while religion is the product of man, seeking. While religion seek to impose their will on man, faith enables us to have a close relationship with God, and through that relationship, giving us hope, strength and love, and in turn gives those to people who needs it. Thats why Jesus condemns the religious Pharisees while He helps those who are weakest in society.
A recent SSO article dated 17th of August mentioned that 60% of Christians supports gay marriage, those 60% represents Christians of true faith, while Rev Fred Nile represents those of religious Christians, you can clearly see that mainstream Christians no longer accepts the religiousity that condemns and rejects like Rev Fred Nile does, but their faith have led them to see LGBTIQ community are people that deserved to be loved and accepted just like everyone else.
I am not trying to impose any moral superiority nor convert you here, and I don’t intend to do so. My only aim is to get people to understand us, just as you are getting the mainstream community to understand our brothers and sisters in the LGBTIQ community. At the end of the day, I am just a guy who loves Jesus, and proud to be 100% gay =)
Here are some resources which I highly recommend you to have a look:
Freedom 2 b[e]
http://www.freedom2b.org
Freedom 2 b[e] is established by Anthony Venn-Brown, and is an organisation for LGBTIQ people with a Christian faith background to come together to share their experience with faith, and how they reconcile their faith with their sexuality. The website contains amazing stories of their journey with their faith and sexuality, and it also contains numerous resources as well.
Metropolitan Community Church
http://www.mccsydney.org
http://www.cravemcc.com
http://www.mccgoodshepherd.com
Metropolitan Community Church (MCC)started in the US in 1967 and its an inclusive church that welcomes people from all walks of live, including people of LGBTIQ community. It has churches over 23 countries with 40,000 members, making it one of the largest LGBTIQ organisations in the world. We have three MCC churches here in Sydney, one in Petersham, Paddington and Granville, and their websites are above.
Books:
Life of Unlearning – Anthony Venn Brown
Great article, Jesse. I am a gay atheist retiree and gave up belief in the magic bloke in the sky many moons ago. All religion is nothing more than medieval mumbo jumbo, with absolutely no foundation in proof of a god or gods. Like Alex, I also belong to the Atheist Foundation of Australia. Religion needs to be questioned/ challenged as it is based on books and dogmas that are nothing more than nonsense made up by hetero power-hungry men to malign gays and keep women oppressed.
Religion is obsessed with sex. How dare they (e.g. Pope, Pell, Nile, mullahs, rabbis, etc, etc) tell me what I should or shouldn’t do. They are all sanctimonious hypocrites. Bugger off !!
Not all churches discriminate against GLBTI people.
I think a few need to reread this article, as it seems some have misread the intended underlying meaning. Sometimes i think we miss the point because our heads are buried in the sand so to speak, maybe try thinking outside the box? I myself really enjoyed this article, good work!!!Food for thought:)
To all the religious queers out there (christian, muslim, jewish, buddhist, hindu, scientologist, who gives a toss they’re all scum).
Wake Up.
You’ve been dumped.
Move On.
Join the Athiest Foundation of Australia and fight the bastards.
So many comments here, sounds like a spark was outed.
Opinion is a individual’s choice.
What ever your values and worship is for the choice of the person.
Religion is a choice. Sexuality is not.
This is what these statements are out lining.
Please understand and respect others (including Jesse’s) comments.
Hi Jesse….I think your article was good and highlighted something express by many….particularly with the work I have been doing for a number of years now.
Why bother many ask? I guess i can answer personally for me……i bother to create change and save lives. I have lost count of the number of people now who came from faith backgrounds troubled by the perceived conflict between their sexuality and faith. Some of those were seriously considering suicide at the time. A tragic situation for sure. Had the message been to reject your faith many would not have made it through. Talking about those who have integrated faith and sexuality is much more healthy for them at that stage. Changes have happened in many churches and denominations but not all. I found that I have been more effective having conversations inside the city walls than protesting outside.
I liked the way you closed off the article.
“You believe in Jesus, I believe in Gaga. My rite is the dance, yours is a prayer. You clap for a choir, I clap to the beat. You drink wine, I drink anything containing alcohol.
Within our differences, we have our similarities. Wow, I think I just managed to purge myself of any prejudices — it’s a miracle!”
I created this model some years ago now ( http://gayambassador2.blogspot.com/ )……and found it to be very effective. its an invitation to both camps. I recognise though that for a variety of reasons…..some will not engage…..that is their right. We do live in a relatively democratic country thank god (whoever she may be…hehe).
“Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night
already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light
can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that” Martin Luther King Jr, part baptist christian I believe and all parts protestant saint. He gave his life so that back people could be free.
Hi again Jesse,
Congratulations on reading the Bible cover-to-cover. I have yet to get through the whole thing. But since you’re pretty familiar with the Bible, you must be aware that it’s gone through a lot of changes over the millennia. Written and re-written, sections thrown out completely, translated and translated again… hey, here’s a fun exercise: go to Babelfish and translate a sentence from English to Spanish to French to German and back to English again, and see if it’s the same as what you started with. Because that’s pretty much what’s happened with the Bible and other ancient holy writings.
It’s interesting that you assume I’m a Christian. I don’t think I said that I was one. Again, Christians are not the only “religious” people out there.
Alex Pittaway (in the previous comment) explained the logical fallacy behind the concept of ‘cherry picking’ even better than I could. Religion is a whole lot more than a list of dos & don’ts in a giant old book. That sort of thinking is missing the point.
That’s why it doesn’t really bother me a whole lot when people say they don’t believe in God or whatever. Quite frankly it’s none of my business.
But if you are under the impression that religious synagogue-church-mosque-temple-going people (ALLLL of them) are defacto supporters of hatred and bigotry, then I’m here to tell you that’s… just totally wrong. It’s like saying all gays are paedophiles out to convert kids and destroy traditional families. Oh, wait.
Adam, I’m not just referencing cherry picking to do with homosexual verses, though this is what is being talked about. Every sect of Christianity chooses what suits their needs and excuses the rest as fiction. The gay-friendly church over the gay-hating church take different interpretations of the passages to do with homosexuality, but they probably take a hundred different things differently too. Claiming that you support gays is great. In fact, before long it’s not going to be a claim, it’s going to be expected. Claiming that the bible supports gays is selfish as it is telling the world that, yes you can read the bible differently, but your interpretation is the correct one.
I think what’s jarring about the article and what drowns out the conciliatory tone at the end, is that it feels like your drumming up suspicion between non religious and religious gays with comments like ‘you are in some ways working against me’ and ‘there has always been one type of person I can’t help feeling a little uneasy around — religious gays’.
I think your alluding to division where none need exist. People at the end of the day are still people and we as a community should value them as such and instead of looking at them through prejudged labels.
So let me get this straight …
If the gays dare question religion (note religion, not Christianity, the two are VERY different), particularly gays who find comfort in religion, they they are vilifying the religious.
When a religious person stands up and vilifies gays, it is Ok because it is their belief and God-given right.
Anyone else smell the hypocrisy?
For those screaming loudest about this opinion piece I suggest you re-read without your rose coloured glasses and then do a little navel gazing ..
If you took offence to this article than you probably didn’t pay close enough attention to what I wrote.
The underlying message was that we have our differences but in a way we are the same. We are divided and to say we are anything but different would be ignorant and I’m pretty sure thats what makes our community so diverse.
By going to church I am contributing to “the machine”?
That’s strange. Because I can’t recal their last sermon against gays, or them encouraging us to sign a petition, or them attacking us with pickets.
But I do remember more and more of my Christian friends becoming supportive as they got to understand my life better.
This article is worse than anything I’ve heard in church.
I think it’s important to confront this whole ‘cherry picking’ assumption that people have of religious gays.
That’s an incredibly over simplistic way of looking at a very complex document. Your assuming its black and white when there many shades of grey.
The Bible isnt a simple of list of do’s and don’t’s, which religious gays ‘cherry pick’. Far from a list, it’s an evolving, dynamic story if you will. Now just because events in the story change and develop, ie the focus moves from following laws to following Jesus, does not mean that the previous laws are ignored. It just means the stories changed.
Those few passages that briefly mention homosexuality in the Bible arent ignored by Gay Christians, they’re just taken into context as parts of an older history. That history changed, and gay Christians, like most mainstream tolerant Christians see the bigger the picture instead of getting caught up in the window dressing. That doesnt mean they’re cherry picking.
The issue with the bible, as you haven’t said but alluded to, is that it does discriminate against gays. outoutout, you can interpret those parts to not be true, but then where do you stop. cherry-picking from the bible is worse than sticking to it fully and totally, from a doctrine point of view, because at least they follow the word of god like truth. your perception of truth is actually truth based upon perception, and therefore cannot be truth.
i’m with jesse matheson in saying that you are supporting a machine that, for the most part even if you personally are not, is against your very sexuality. something that we both know is definitely real.
I’m gonna go with the Anne Rice kinda view.
She stepped away from Catholicism recently because she could no longer be part of a construct that was sexist and homophobic.
She still dedicates herself to Jesus and to god and to being a good person. But it seems to me she cant seem to call her self Catholic when she supports gay rights and womens rights.
She still practices the faith she was brought up with and believes in the good things believes in but simply does not give energy or support to that institution.
So I think same sex attracted people who identify has christian or any other religion do so… in a new way. They are a ‘new breed’ so to speak of people who connect with denominational faith in a way different to the close minded people who practice hate and intolerance. When the same label is being used by different groups such as these it can be hard to make a distinction and difficult for people to understand the difference.
Two wrongs never made a right, they just make more and more hate and sadness.
If a religious person said these things about gay people, it would be hate speech. Surely a community that has experienced so much hate speech should think twice before publishing that kind of material, which only validates the homophobia that some religious people give in return. Well frankly, I expect much better from the editors of SSO.
Pastor Karl Hand, CRAVE Metropolitan Community Church
I can see where you’re coming from Jessie, and as a lapsed Catholic and current Jesus-loving delinquent I find it easy to mistrust mainstream religion too. But this article doesn’t help bridge the divides between religious straight people, religious gay people and the mainstream gay community one bit. All it serves to do is ostracize many of us, my friends, who were raised religious and born gay.
I guess I’m one of the ‘bad kids’ in the gay Christian community- I’m poly, love leather and heels, I am also a sex worker and drink like it’s going out of fashion. But please, don’t label me as ‘part of the machine’ when I’m one of the people actively working in anti-gay religious groups to stem the oppression.
I think the beauty in the homosexual community is our diversity, and unlike the church, there is room for everyone to take part. Let’s not do the very thing we accuse the church of doing (ie forcing people to chose sides) to our gay christian friends, should they chose to uphold their beliefs.
Hey Jesse,
You are welcome to have your own opinion and we are fortunate to live in a country that grants free speech. Unfortunately your article is offensive and is anything but inclusive.
LGBTI people who choose to have faith are some of the most beautiful people. Most are actively trying to make churches and other places of worship safer for same-sex attracted youth.
I am not asking you to agree with my choice to be a Christian or to come to church with me on a Sunday, but, as a gay man I would hope that you would at least acknowledge the wonderful diversity in our community and be thankful that there is a place for everyone.
You seem like a nice guy and I’m sure you didn’t mean to offend or upset anyone.
Please next time be a little kinder. Otherwise you are just the same as the people who condemn us for being gay.
I think it’s worth taking into account that organized religious denominations like MCC have done great things for the LGBT community. It was MCC in the late 60s that helped put gay the gay rights struggle on the map before the stonewall riots. It was MCC (Metropolitan Community Churches) which started World AIDS day in the 1980s. MCC was the first gay group to perform same sex marriages decades before it was even on the agenda.
Organized religion has the capacity for good,it also has the capacity for evil because people have the capacity for good or evil. Bigots will hijack any belief system to carry out their hatred,in that sense organized religion is not inherently bad.
I’m afraid this article only reinforces the gap between sexuality and religion. I fear for those people caught between that divide who find rejection from their church and also from the gay community.
Let’s not have an us and them mentality when dealing with people of faith,gay or straight.
Wholeheartedly agree. The same applies to liberal voting gays
outoutout – I have read the bible, cover-to-cover actually, and while I understand where you come from, I believe my view still stands. You may not like other christians or even go to church, but you do know that there are plenty of passages (unfortunately), that do discriminate against gays and that you would be ignorant not too see that.
You may choose not to believe in those passages BUT then you yourself begin to pick and choose what to and what not to believe in – exactly what many bigots do.
Look, I’m fine with people being spiritual and even being agnostic. But when they are a part of a religion (and I’m talking within the church), then you are adding to the machine. You may not give them money or anything, but even by being there you are becoming their follower.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
– Epicurus
Belief in any God is an assault on reason. It is not possible to have a rational discussion with someone who holds a belief that is contrary to evidence and logic. Gays who profess faith are the enemies reason, churches that support gays when the bibles hatred is clear are just hypocrites.
Why would you need an imaginary friend (God) who didn’t really like you?
Hi there, I’m guess one of those “religious gays” you’re talking about.
Most prejudice is based upon ignorance about how the other half lives. You claim not to understand how I can belong to a religion that actively discriminates, but that’s just it – my religious teachings do not. Are you actually familiar with the teachings of any religion? I’m not talking about what some pastor or priest says they are, but the actual books…the actual writings of any religion. And by the way? Christianity is not the only one out there. There are gay Muslims, gay Buddhists, gay Jews…
Ever heard the saying, “I love God, I just can’t stand His fan club?”
I guess, conversely, I simply can’t understand how people see a few people doing bad things in the name of “religion” and conclude that therefore all religion (ALLL of it) is inherently false.
It doesn’t have to be an “either/or” “with us or against us” thing. That kind of thinking is pure nonsense. There are gay/lesbian pastors, gay/lesbian rabbis, gay/lesbian outreach groups working hard from within against the machine of hate and bigotry.
Not trying to convert you, but encouraging you to educate yourself a bit more.
Here here !!! Religious and gay is like a vegan mass murderer they both make no friggin sense at all it’s time for gays to stop procrastinating and choose a side if it sounds like a war cry it bloody well is cause those religious bastards Jew muslim Christian want nothing more than to see us all die